Talk:Basic Grids

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New ROTB weapons

13
Galbias (talkcontribs)

Any objections to adding the new Omega ROTB weapons (or at least the Fire/Water/Earth ones) to the grids? Given that Ray of Zhuque is listed in the Fire section I feel like these should be added as they'll be a significant improvement over the standard Omega weapons.

KonatsuSV (talkcontribs)

Sounds pretty fair. All 4 of them should at least be an improvement over sklv10 omega weapons.

KonatsuSV (talkcontribs)

It should be noted that the page really seems pretty outdated. But I'm not sure how this can be improved because it's somewhat mismatched with Team Building (e.g. Fire section mentions AES but clearly no new player would ever have 5 AESs at their disposal). Do we intend the page to be new player specific?

Zeze (talkcontribs)

I feel like the page would be served well if it was redesigned to be something like Kamigame's grid guide, which gives layout suggestions, main/support summon recs, numbers for each skill modifier that should be in the grid, baseline skill levels, and most importantly, visuals.

Since the page is titled Basic Grids, it should probably be designed for new players. That said, it's pretty easy to forget what it's like to be a new player once you reach HL content, so I think doubling down on the page's scope will be good. Stuff that's more complex is already better-defined by other resources like Team Building (though most players don't get referred to the Team Building guide, usually it's Basic Grids that gets linked) and Pooky's Grid Guide.

Galbias (talkcontribs)

I think the page generally has the right idea, as a sort of general weapon framework to aim for in each element. I can say that I found it helpful when I was first starting out, but it could probably use a couple tweaks in spots (AES vs Colo Cane, also not sure why it recommends 6 Tia Bolts in Wind vs 4 Celeste Claws/2 Axes in Dark even though Dark generally has better Enmity characters, probably an explanation at early about why you want different weapon skill types) and maybe a short writeup on the weapon/summon choices for each element, similar to Pooky's guide but less in depth since this only covers pre-HL content.

ie, for Water (one of the simpler ones): 5 Leviathan Gaze Omega provide the core Omega Attack boost which is further increased by a Leviathan Omega summon. Winter's Frostnettle gives a smaller Omega Attack boost, but compensates by adding Crit chance and an Enmity modifier, which will provide more damage overall in most situations.

Zeze (talkcontribs)

I'll start working on a page revamp on my own userspace (User:Zeze/Sandbox) before seeing what the rest of the editing team thinks. I agree with small explanations; it might be helpful for players who want to know why we're picking a Medium ATK weapon over a Big ATK weapon, or why we aren't using a Colossus Blade when it has Enmity which is supposedly amazing, without going in too deep into the damage formulas.

I also want to cut down on a bit of the wordiness of the Notes section, but I'm a bit of a long-winded writer, so we'll see how that goes.

Galbias (talkcontribs)

That looks really good to me.

Dashi (talkcontribs)

A more updated version probably would forgo AES entirely. 6 tiamat bolts outdamage any other early/medium combination via double magna skills. It is only surpassed at M2 by adding several harps 4★ to it, and the difference is minimal when comparing peak performances of both. (Roughly 10% of final damage increase in a 50% hp scenario. Higher at full. Lower anywhere else.) While dark doesn't need more than 4 claws to reach cap damage, they are rare to come by without pendanting, and a 5th claw nowadays is replaced by an Akasha weapon or m2 scepter.

That guide attempts to avoid confusing new players. So it avoids going in-depth on why and how each option is as is. It is not meant the replace in-depth element guides.

Also, personal opinion here, but Pooky's guides are generally bad.

Galbias (talkcontribs)

This is just a early game guide, HL stuff shouldn't factor into it aside from maybe "you'll probably only use 4 Claws in HL so there's no need to farm more than that", probably something similar with Wind.

AES should definitely be listed, they're difficult to farm but they can be obtained pre-HL and are competitive with Canes.

I'm kind of conflicted on Spring's Whisperings, it's a solid and easily obtained Omega weapon but it's probably best mentioned as a filler option since HP/DA versus Enmity (Bolt) or higher attack mod (Gauntlet) isn't quite optimal, you can get it to sk15 earlier but skill fodder will probably be a limitation for early players. It also has low raw attack compared to Tiamat weapons.

The other three ROTB weapons are fairly safe adds I think.

Zeze (talkcontribs)

It's been a while since I've checked in here, but my demo for a revamped Basic Grids page is largely complete: see User:Zeze/Sandbox. Feel free to edit that page before it's finalized and approved to replace what we currently have (if it's agreed that it would be an improvement).

I've made some pretty major changes from the original page in light of the overall state of early-game:

  1. Biggest (visual) change is the main grid example provided for each element, which may help provide a visual reference for newer players.
  2. For the example grids, I decided to go with an "ideal" grid that includes things like upgraded Xeno weapons since I tend to see newer players question why Xeno is such a big deal, or what benefit they're getting from their weapons. I've moved the old recommended side story EX weapons to their respective Filler Weapons sections.
    1. For the Fire and Light grid examples: Since those two can start being worked on before unlocking M2 raids, especially Light which undergoes a major transition at the early HL stage to Lumi Swords, I decided to display alternate grids for AES/Lumi Sword. (There's a note for Lumi Sword grid that it should only be used after HL, though.) I wasn't sure how far to go with the Lumi Sword example, so I showed off a relatively late-game gridfeel free to change that if you guys think I should go with something more feasible for newer players.
    2. I also added an explanation section for each grid, for curious players who want to know why we're recommending X weapon over Y.
  3. In the Filler Weapons sections, I've divided them by skill type, as well as noted which weapons are easy to get (i.e. side story completion reward) and where to get them from.
  4. The Summons sections have been condensed from Main/Support into a single Filler Summon section, with division between Farmable and Premium Draw summons for visual ease. I've trimmed down the list of summons to ones I see more often on support lists, or to those that new players are more likely to have off the bat. A few gacha summons that aren't particularly better at 0 than side story summons got the boot, but they can be added back if you think they should be on there.
    1. For now, I've removed all Normal-boost summons so as to not confuse players. (The Damage Formula pages don't really talk about Normal-boost summons that aren't the Optimus series.)
    2. I'm not really fond of the name "Filler Summons" since some of the summons are perfectly viable support summons, but "Alternate Summons" also wasn't completely accurate either. If someone has a suggestion for it, feel free to recommend it.
Galbias (talkcontribs)

Some thoughts:

-I think Winter's Frostnettle deserves to be a part of the standard Water grid, similar to Summer's Mirage on Fire. Having Enmity adds an entirely new modifier which is very valuable in fights where you will take damage, and given that Bolts and Claws are considered the core grid for Wind/Dark it's odd that it's left out.

-Same for Autumn's Transformation in Earth. The argument isn't quite as strong here but having some extra Double Attack is likely going to be helpful early and the Crit scales well into M2 where it stacks with the Crit from Nibelung Horn. Unlike Frostnettle and Mirage it's not a weapon that you're likely to use forever, but I think it's a safe long-term grid addition rather than filler.

-I honestly feel like Bonito deserves equal billing with Europa, or at least a larger note under Explanation. Even as a fairly new player I was still getting far more use out of Bonito support than Europa support in raids, with the caveat that you need at least 4 Water summons which may not be immediately doable.

-For Wind, I would say that the core 6 Omega weapons should be 3 Bolts and then 3 slots that rotate between Gauntlets and Bolts. I never bothered to farm beyond 3 Bolts (same with Claws in Dark) and don't feel like I missed out on anything. To be fair, this is already noted under Explanation so it's probably fine as-is.

-For the initial Light grid, I'd actually say all of the Omega weapons should be rotating between Harps and Bolts, given that the entire grid is effectively filler that you'll want to replace as soon as possible after rank 101.

-There's an error under the Dark grid Explanation: "In M2 grids, a few are typically replaced by Abyss Spine and Nibelung Klinge ×3."

Looks very good overall though, definitely an improvement over the existing article.

Zeze (talkcontribs)

Hmm, I tend to see Winter's Frostnettle and Autumn's Transformation as the least recommended of the RotB Omega weapons. The strength of Bolts and Claws is that there's multiples on the grid, which can't be said for Frostnettle. I do agree that I may be underselling Autumn's, it's easy to forget how painful the lack of MA is during earlygame... (I'll also ask the editor channel on Discord for their opinions, since they're generally more grid-conscientious than I am.)

Fair enough on Bonito. I felt like all three of the "filler"/alternate summons are equal to or stronger than Europa, but I do know a lot of newer players (AKA those who are usually getting directed to this page) can find her quite useful.

I'll consider the changes on Wind/Light/Dark, though I think if we're displaying "ideal grids that are the strongest they can be for a pre-HL player," they're accurate as-is. Now, whether the average player will actually have that by the time they reach HL... is a completely different story. (I wonder if we should add a disclaimer somewhere that says "It's okay if you don't have these grids by the time you reach rank 100.")

Galbias (talkcontribs)

Sorry for the late response. As far as Frostnettle goes, motocal actually states that it gives more damage on average even at full HP over a 4* Leviathan Gaze, here's a quick chart for using a 6th 4* Gaze versus Frostnettle: https://imgur.com/a/nnC7DF9

Keep in mind that, Enmity aside, the increased damage is coming from Critical Hit chance, and there is eventually the possibility of hitting the damage cap on crits which will reduce their value, but I don't think this is of any major concern for new players.

The same is essentially true of Autumn's Transformation. I didn't do a chart comparison because motocal tends to inflate the value of multiattack, but since it is still working with the same Medium Attack and Medium Crit as a Frostnettle at full HP it will likewise offer higher average damage than even a 4* Yggdrasil Sword let alone a 3*, and then has the Double Attack on top.

Fair on Wind/Light/Dark though.

Please put back the old "progression" for basic grid

2
Summary by Zeze

Added.

213.213.197.96 (talkcontribs)

(unless i am missing it. Then help i cant find it :p) It made stuff a lot clearer for new players like me.

Zeze (talkcontribs)

It's bundled under the Overview section, in the tab labeled "Strengthening your grid".

Edit: After some discussion with other editors, I'll work on a way to add in revised Progression sections. (Part of the reason it was previously removed was because it gave some poor advice.)

Zhnigo (talkcontribs)

Why is VARIS not in the farmable EX weapons section in the wind grid? Is it an oversight or is there some reason to it?

Zeze (talkcontribs)

It's an oversight on my part.

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