Talk:Character Tier List

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Did Gamewith recently updated their Tier Lists?

Discoceris (talkcontribs)

I was surprised to see... a lot of changes today. Now I feel a bit awkward with some of my choices in just the past several months or so with spending/farming resources for certain characters and team compositions. :(

Zeze (talkcontribs)

They had a mass update at the end of August.

On a related note, Kamigame overhauled their Tier List system, so the beginner ratings seen on character strategy pages is deprecatedright now, we haven't updated the template to accommodate for the changes.

Discoceris (talkcontribs)

Thank you for your hard work and dedication! (talkcontribs)

Kolulu is 9.5 on the wiki and 9.7 on gamewith. This is contradictory with "all rating are taken verbatim".

Hakazumi (talkcontribs)

Her rating has been updated 4 hours ago, I purged the page in case it still didn't show the recent rating.
It wasn't contradictory per se since that was her GW rating before it was changed by GW, and since it's GW changing it for themselves, we're not getting notified every time they update the scores which means that it takes longer for them to be updated here.

Frost17 (talkcontribs)

Change it back please. Gamewith is shit and the this looks like shit :) Would also like to say that Hiroshi Sora's tier list makes a lot more sense than the others.

Hakazumi (talkcontribs)


It won't be changed back.
It has been decided long ago that the ratings will be taken from gamewith. It makes no sense to just stop now because that would mean the ratings would never change anymore as gamewith most likely won't revert back. Even if there are more sources of ratings that could be used, it doesn't mean all of them can be adapted into wiki as it currently stands.
Give people more time to react to the change and create their opinions about it.

Aqing0601 (talkcontribs)

Personally, I think there's a very high chance for confusion, due to the fact that a 0.1 gap looks very similar to a 0.5 gap. I am not sure if this is intentional on Gamewith's part, where a 9.5 is "Just a tier" better than a 9.4, and these tier numbers are just for namesake, I am not sure about the power levels designation of characters myself, so I can only speculate.

The difference in gaps are perhaps better represented as a line? So the distance between the characters are directly proportional to their position on the tier. Otherwise, the table is not really a good visual representation of the power difference of the characters and is very ambiguous and misleading.

Hakazumi (talkcontribs)
the table is not really a good visual representation of the power difference of the characters

It never really served such role.

the table [...] is very ambiguous and misleading.

It was always like that.

Aqing0601 (talkcontribs)

Is that not the role of a tier list? To show how useful and powerful one character is relative to another? It's a visualisation of said such analysis, as otherwise, a long essay of all characters will do.

I think just because it was misleading, does not excuse us to improve it in the future. Every little bit of improvement helps, right?

Hakazumi (talkcontribs)
Aqing0601 (talkcontribs)

By outlining each character's strength and weakness, showing them how one character is more or less useful than another. By giving them an arbitrary number in which simplifies the decision process of finding the useful characters from one to another.

Aqing0601 (talkcontribs)

Sorry if I sound very argumentative, that's not my intention. All I want is to provide some opinions on the way that the tier list right now is represented. I am by no means an analytics expert, nor do I know every character well enough to justify their powerlevels.

Hakazumi (talkcontribs)

We're not the ones doing the ranking. We just take the numbers from gamewith and the only thing we figured out about how they rate is that they generally give characters with def down debuffs higher rating than they would normally deserve. Usefulness as healers / buffers? How good are they in bursting setups? OTKs? Sustain in long fights? Gamewith doesn't have such sorting system.

Aqing0601 (talkcontribs)

Again, I am NOT arguing the score that gamewiths gives. I dont mind the scores, they serves as a PERFECT starting guideline for these characters. Any players who does not take their own conditions into considerations and blindly follows tier lists is a fool and deserves only themselves to blame.

What I am saying is that the Tier list right now, arranged as a table, gives an equidistance for a difference of 0.5 and 0.1. Which makes it VERY misleading for players to see powerlevels. E.g. Is the difference between Alexiel and Cain 3 times larger than the difference between Cain and Eugen? Because the current method of representation shows that there's an equidistance between 10.0-9.7 and 9.7-9.6. I think this can create a lot of confusion.

Sorry that I wasn't very clear from the get-go.

Hakazumi (talkcontribs)

No matter what you'd do, some people will get confused. I personally don't feel like the same way you do at all. Also, current placement in table supports tooltips which is better than gamewith or kamigame's simple list with nothing but names and numbers.

Aqing0601 (talkcontribs)

So is Alexiel 3 times more useful than Cain than Cain is Eugen?

Or are the differences the same, just a tier above?

AdlaiT (talkcontribs)

The filtered display might be what you're looking for.

As far as how the tier list is displayed, it's completely fine to discuss that in a civilized, mature manner (e.g. not like User:Frost17). While I understand there is a large community outcry regarding GameWith's new granularity and consequences thereof, will not make a reactionary decision as that would be unwise in the long run. We've already had some preliminary discussion on how to adjust going forward, but it's best for us to make a decision once the reactionary dust has settled.

--AdlaiT (talk) - Wiki Admin 22:48, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Hakazumi (talkcontribs)
Aqing0601 (talkcontribs)

AdlaiT, Thanks for the reply, I am only pointing out a flaw/downside of the current tier list that I am facing. I am not angry about the Gamewith Tier list. The Filtered list still has the same problem of misrepresentation. But I do appreciate what the team is doing with the Wiki.

Hakazumi, but you said that you are not confused? Surely you'd have the answer without me asking Gamewith?

Hakazumi (talkcontribs)

I hate to repeat myself. We don't know what criteria gamewith uses to list characters. So the difference in number does not represent the power in any sense to me at all.
If you want to know how big their usefulness difference is to gamewith, ask gamewith.
Still, on the visual side only, what I got from your message is that you're bothered by how the numbers between the 9-10 are placed in the same way as numbers from 8 to 3. I'm not bothered by it because one is not supposed to look not only at the rows but also at the numbers next to them, that's all there is to it.

Aqing0601 (talkcontribs)

I'm sorry that you have to repeat yourself. I must have not made myself clear. I apologise.

You got my point completely. I am indeed bothered by the fact that the numbers 10-9.7 are place the same way 9.7-9.6 is.

What my argument is, these scores are completely arbitrary and therefore, only given value in comparison to other scores so the difference between the scores are what gives the scores their meanings. An 9.0 character score will mean nothing if we do not have characters with lower score and higher score. This is the way that arbitrary numbers worked, and their difference determines where they lie in relative to each other.

I am glad that you do not find this tier list confusing. But to me, I still find it to be a problem. Maybe I am on my own, but I do not wish the case of many people with a similar confusion to me to be the case. Sorry if I sounded like I was being very selfish.

Ribby (talkcontribs)

I must concur with Aqing0601, on the matter of decimals.

These specific decimal numbers are just more specific comparison ratings based on situations and things like that. Getting into detail, you know! Even phenotypic aesthetics can be taken in evaluation! I do that all the time!

Can't we go for a simple real number value for our row/record/tuples parameters? It will simplify things in terms of (relational database) organization. To decide which value is just much more better or not, is like to give a number to a subjective measurement. Unfortunately, we don't really know what those ratings are bound by! Can you tell? There comes a case when one character is good at something, while the other character specializes in something else! There's no possible way that decimal numbers can ultimately decide the utmost ultimate omnipotent character of world. Even the player classes have their own strengths and weaknesses! We don't compare the classes, do we? The same can go for summons too!

Instead of using these decimal numbers, we should start a basic (real number) weapons and summons tier list instead. I mean, it is just general comparison, and it's up to users to pick out their own fling. Whoever's doing this decimal stuff is like one person gets to be the judge of all things.


Now, maybe it's just a rant, and is just going by the flow, but we all know that you can't judge a book by its cover.

Speaking of cover, I really feel that the decimal introduced new table design is to address width scrolling. True, but the larger rows makes for more length scrolling.

To top it all off, the width of the mouseover table is very short as well! The text scrolls down below the screen monitor. The width could be much wider as to use the space given. What is it? An over-accommodation for smartphone devices? Maybe a bit too much. What we are getting at is what my mentors said as possibly bad interface design flaws. I'll ask gamewith about the need for decimals, as well as their interface decisions. And it's almost like my user page, which is a scary coincidence. It's supposed to be a sitemap rather than a real website. I hadn't gotten to interface design yet (had to ask for permission).

FabulousCupcake (talkcontribs)

This discussion is quite hard to process, but from what I get it seems like the core issue is simply the gamewith's new decimal scoring shown with "equidistance for a difference of 0.5 and 0.1." in the tierlist page.

The layout was updated on 22 July 2019 to better indicate this, so I guess it's resolved now.

Aqing0601 (talkcontribs)

I was just going to pop in to say thanks for taking my opinion into consideration. I like how the list look now, it's a very innovative way to show the list. Thanks.

Galbias (talkcontribs)

Is there a way to edit the Remarks section? Wanted to add notes for a couple of characters that don't have them yet based on personal usage and info on Gamewith/Kamigame, and update a few (Vajra's could use a mention of how multiattack/Charge Bar buffs are important to make the most of her kit and Yuel's erroneously lists Bonus Fire Damage twice).

Hakazumi (talkcontribs)

Click link in important notes, scroll down the page and click the other link.

Galbias (talkcontribs)

Thank you! One additional question, is the "last_update=" something we should change when we make updates, or leave alone?

Hakazumi (talkcontribs)

See your own talk page.

I think that rework the Tier List could be a good idea.

Rythire (talkcontribs)

This seems a good idea because I've seen that the characters ranking don't change after upgrades (like Vania for example). If characters ranking don't change after they'r added, they might be a lot of things to change.

Hakazumi (talkcontribs)

Vania got an upgrade, from 8,5 to 9,0.

Zeze (talkcontribs)

Also note that we're pulling our tier rankings from Gamewith and, from what I'm aware, currently have no intention on creating our own tier list.

If you disagree with Gamewith's rankings, you can also look at Kamigame (another JP game site's) tier list. It's almost always the same as Gamewith's, though; I think I've only seen maybe one or two differences.

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