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Special buffs and shields

Bragior (talkcontribs)

Haka, I know there is currently no special buff that provides a shield, but you shouldn't disregard a possibility of one showing up either. Besides, the line is a clarification with regards to regular buffs, and Shield is one of the listed regular buffs. However, because of a specific mechanic preventing shield from stacking regardless of the source, a possibility of a special buff providing a shield should also follow.

Hakazumi (talkcontribs)

I said it during many occasion and I'll keep on saying it, we shouldn't discuss possible features that might be implemented in the future or actually never be added to the game.
Shields are all "normal" and they don't stack with each other, some buffs are making shields ineffective, that's all that there is to it.
That one bit is, as of currently, not only redundant but could also be misinforming since there is no shield that's a part of special buff as I mentioned before.

If they were ever to add special buff that includes a shield, it would either be like currently existing buffing shields or, since it's called special, actually stack with regular shield. We can't tell this at this point of time and we shouldn't assume it either.

Abolish the terms Single-Sided and Double-Sided

12 (talkcontribs)

It is really hard to explain to newbies the difference between single-sided debuffs and double-sided debuffs. It is not clear and concise at first glance.

This is more clear at first glance. Anyway, sorry I can't explain it well.

KonatsuSV (talkcontribs)

The stacking effectiveness in Granblue is complex and largely arbitrary. There are many "Special Cases" in stacking which cannot simply be explained by logic. And then there are so many areas where stacking discrepancies can happen, e.g. Elemental ATK buffs, debuffs, Bonus DMG buffs, etc.

Back to the main point, single-sided and double-sided debuff distinguishment is iirc simply one of the many heuristics players deducted to see if things stack. It works to a certain degree but there are definitely cases where this heuristic doesn't work (most notably Drang and Ferry(Grand)). Obviously we would like an exhaustive list of stacking relationships, and/or better heuristics to judge them, but it's also very time consuming to test and exhaustively list. In my opinion, there's no simple way of making these things absolutely clear.

But to answer your question: is there a clear distinction between single-sided and double-sided debuffs? The answer is yes, single-sided means one of ATK/DEF like Defense Breach, and double-sided means both ATK and DEF like Miserable Mist. However, like the wiki page mentions, MANY exceptions exist. I prefer the name "Mist category" and "Non-mist category", but I guess it's just as unclear as what we're using now.

Midokuni (talkcontribs)

I'd say `Mist` category and `Breach` category would work since the others would be `summon`(summons/ougis) `special`(lyria ougi) `elemental`(ele def down) `local`(turn based) and `unique` (special cases like shiva/anchira/aranan)

Midokuni (talkcontribs)

`Mist` and `Breach` categories would be less prone to the current problems dual and single sided categories give. Like what you said, Drang's debuff being a dual debuff but single sided.

Lauman1532 (talkcontribs)

The problem with 'Mist' and 'Breach' is that they are still linked to the concept of double-sided and single-sided. In my opinion, a more arbitrary naming scheme would suffice, e.g. A-sided/Cat A and B-sided/Cat B debuffs. In this case, it can be easily told/seen that a Cat A debuff will not stack with another Cat A debuff with the same type of effect, on the other hand, a Cat A debuff and a Cat B debuff will stack with each other even if they give the same type of effect.

Hakazumi (talkcontribs)

I definitely don't want any single-digit numbers or characters to be used. It's way too harder to remember and makes even less sense than what we have now.

Zeze (talkcontribs)

I agree with Hakazumi on the matter. The Bonus Damage page currently uses the A/B system and it's far too confusing considering A/B is used three times, for three different bonus damage sources, in the section explaining how it works. Nobody who doesn't already understand bonus damage stacking is going to make heads or tails of it if all the tooltip on the character's page says is "A".

Single-sided and dual-sided is somewhat wordy, but once you understand that "single-sided" stacks with "dual-sided," singles don't stack with singles, and duals don't stack with duals, that basically tells you all you need to know. You know what it means at a glance.

Lauman1532 (talkcontribs)

In fact what you are saying is exactly the problem why 'single-sided' and 'doubled-sided' confuse new players. This is because 'single-sided' and 'double-sided' reflect the idea of "whether a skill inflicts debuff of one attribute or debuff of two attributes", and this idea does not necessarily translate to the stacking relationships as outliers exist as mentioned by the others, so this can happen: A seemingly doubled-sided debuff skill which inflicts both ATK&DEF down does not stack with a single-sided debuff because the debuffs are actually single-sided (Yes I'm referring to Drang's 3rd skill). It makes sense if you get the distinction between two ideas right and clear, and I guess this is why the original poster suggested the change because it can be very hard to explain to newbies about the distinction.

To me, I'm actually fine with 'single-sided' and 'double-sided' even though they may give wrong expectation at times since most buff/debuff skills follow the 'single-sided and double-sided' pattern for stacking.

Zeze (talkcontribs)

As much as people will point out Cain and Drang's skills defying the "dual-sided" term logic, there's also the counter-point of Altair, Aqours, Arriet, Societte, and Vira SSR who have proper dual-sided Atk/Def debuffs. As a beginner, I had the opposite of the Cain/Drang scenario: I initially assumed that Vira's Atk/Def Down was single-sided because as a character, she would have a debuff that would stack with MC's MisMist. (Back then, I thought MisMist was the only skill that could stack with other Def Downs.)

This confusion will occur regardless of terminology because the root problem is outside of our control. The clearest, most concise way to teach beginners how debuff stacking works is just "these are the terms we use, the wiki tells you what kind of DEF Down stacking it is based on testing." It's not a pretty answer, but it's the same as explaining grid-building to a beginner. Probably half of it is going to fly over their heads until they have more hands-on experience.

Midokuni (talkcontribs)

Honestly, I think `mist-sided` and `breach-sided` are better. since you can just say "mist-sided debuffs dont stack with mist` and so on with breach sided

Hakazumi (talkcontribs)

That's even more confusing. Mist sided things are on "mist's side", they're like friends, so they should stack with it, right? That's was my first thought. I'm not native English speaker though.

No matter the game there are things that new players won't understand at first glance. But generally it never takes long and in this case, debuffs are also something they can test themselves very easily. Some entries in tier list mention if character's debuffs stack with mist or not, increasing that number would be enough imo.

AdlaiT (talkcontribs)

Rather late of me to chime in on this conversation, but I've had enough time to think about this.

As esoteric as "single" and "dual" are, they are unified terms within the international community at the very least. New players already have to deal with more than enough interchangeable terms (e.g. Magna/Omega, Ougi/C.A., Chev/Lumi, etc.). Trying to enforce a new set of terminology that the community won't completely adopt only adds to the beginner's learning hurdle, which is already high enough.

The reality is that there's no set "rules" that even Cygames follows in regards to stacking, which leaves explaining it fairly difficult for practically everyone. Zeze's post expressed most of my viewpoint already. The best we can do is explain what these terms mean and be consistent/accurate on their usage on the wiki.

--AdlaiT (talk) - Wiki Admin 07:33, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Local Debuffs Being Removed by Boss Triggers

Midokuni (talkcontribs)

This will be an expansion of Topic:Uvyza89lyclexj5d
I think that there are 2 (or more?) kinds of debuff removal triggers/charge attacks by bosses.

  1. Those that can remove local debuffs
  2. Those that can't remove local debuffs

I first noticed local debuffs being removed in UBHL. the 70% Trigger (The Rage) was able to remove Alanaan's DEF DownDEF is lowered
Local status effect
and PetrifiedStops enemy's charge diamonds from filling.
Local status effect
. From testing a little, it removes the most recent debuffs first (inclusive of removable local debuffs).

  • This is the first kind.

By chance, also in UBHL, the 50% Trigger happened before the timer on the local debuffs ran out and the local debuffs were not removed by UBHL, they stayed until the timer ran out.

  • This is the second kind.

The reason I posted this here now instead of Talk:Alanaan is that I was able to experience that Astaroth'sCoop Pandemonium Stage 6-2 50% Trigger is able to also remove other local debuffs, including OnslaughtTakes effects that activate against foes in break
Local status effect
. This made me think that the debuff removal might've not been a special case for UBHL or for Alanaan.

Now that I think of it, some local debuffs to mention that they Can't be Removed while others don't mention it at all. This can imply that they Can be Removed -- just not by everything. (talkcontribs)

I noticed in Shiva raid the local debuff from s.Grea's 1 gets removed only when I'm the one who pushes the damage into his 40% phase. The dracoforce could still stay if I trigger his 40% skill after someone else removed all debuffs by depleting the hp to 40%.

Perhaps the system checks only from the perspective of the player that met the condition for the debuff removals. So the local debuffs did not get removed because they dont exist in other player's perspective.

Also did a ubhl run to test. The local debuff isnt removed before I face the trigger during 10%. (Didn't get to land a hit to trigger the removal because it died while screenshotting xD)

Midokuni (talkcontribs)

Likewise, when i triggered 50% myself, the local debuffs got removed. But if it was other people who trigger it the local debuffs stay.

Midokuni (talkcontribs)

Share buff and Summon call effect stacking

Saphriel (talkcontribs)

I think there's no explanation on how MC buff effect can be shared to other player(s)? This might be important for those who play as a team.

This is a rule on effect stacking that I know of: Summon call effect seem to stack with party skill effect. ex: Lyria buff skill with say Freyr or Lucifer summon, the attack buff can stack same with MC skill effect such as Mechanic's Refuel or Rage skill.

since Freyr call effect provide a massive attack boost, this mean that if the skill can't stack it should give a "no effect" message when applied, call Freyr first then use party skill to confirm this, I have also check the damage they done and they do stack.

I still don't know how effect stack with weapon CA effect. If the Summon call effect and party skill effect do not stack maybe there's a bug on the game side and be treated as such? Also a skill or call effect that consist of buffs and debuffs might play outside of this rule, an attack that give buff and skill such as heal that give debuff(s) fall under this category.

My theory is, maybe there's an invisible mechanics in the game for buff, debuff, and mixed(buff and debuff)/special slot? When say a buff slot is filled with attack up then other attack up can only overwrite or give no effect. However another attack up can still take slot in the mixed slot.

Summon call effect and CA effect fall under mixed slot regardless on how sometime summon call effect does not give damage. A party member skill can fall under the category of either buff, debuff, or mixed.

Buff/debuff that give more than 50% boost go in mixed/special slot, even if there's a buff or debuff mixed with them that only give say 20% defense down if there is a buff or debuff that give 70% up then all those series of buff and debuff will all fall to the mixed/special slot.

Effects stacking unclear

Kgptzac (talkcontribs)

Unfortunately I find the examples provided in the "Notes > Effect Stacking" is not understandable. Why does the "Rage Iv + Lucifer" example provides a stacked atk up, but "Babylon Staff "Nevil Ane +" + Lucifer" doesn't?

I suggest the page to be rewritten, with clear explanation of the concept of "sources", written before the examples, as to understand the examples one must understand that buffs stack from different sources but not the same source.

Just wanna make sure about elemental debuffs

JeriKnight (talkcontribs)

Do they work with normal atk and def down? To them same cap as well? So if you can already cap atk down and def down, ele debuffs don't actually help unless the boss is resistant against normal atk down and def down?

PetriW (talkcontribs)

Afaik it is as follows:

DEF Down, DEF Down (Stackable) & Element DEF Down together stack up to 50%. Only Forfeit can pass the 50% cap.

ATK Down & ATK Down (Stackable) cap at 50% total (Again Forfeit can pass cap). Element ATK Down goes on a separate multiplier. This means 50% ATK Down & 20% Element ATK Down would be: 1 * (1 - 0.5) * (1 - 0.2) = 0.4, aka 60% total ATK Down.

I have a temporary translation of the damage formula but it is not complete:

JeriKnight (talkcontribs)

Ah I see, so def is a solid cap of 50% with only forfeit being able to break cap. But how does forfeit work? Does it go on the same multiplier as default? Unique? (Probably not elemental multiplier I would imagine.) Maybe even flat down?-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Would it be (for def): 1 * (1 - 0.5) * (1 - 0.1) = 0.45 (Unique) or 1 * (1 - 0.5 - 0.1) = 0.4 (Normal Multiplier)

and for atk (with 20% element atk down):

1 * (1 - 0.5) * (1 - 0.1) * (1 - 0.2) = 0.36 (Unique) or 1 * (1 - 0.5 - 0.1) * (1 - 0.2) = 0.32 (Normal Multiplier) or 1 * (1 - 0.5) * (1 - 0.2 - 0.1) = 0.35 (Elemental Multiplier?) or ((1 * (1 - 0.5) * (1 - 0.2)) - 0.1) = 0.3 (flat -0.1)

I don't know how to leave a breakline :/

PetriW (talkcontribs)

According to Gins translation DEF Down Forfeit works like this:

((1 + DEF Up - (DEF Down + Ele DEF Down ※ Cap -50%)) - Forfeit)

Afaik ATK Down Forfeit is all in this part:

× { 1 - ATK Down Debuff }

Note that Gins translation is probably correct on DEF Down while mine was from an incorrect gbf-wiki formula. (talkcontribs)

please add thiss information to the wiki page it's crucial... (talkcontribs)

Thank you for the edit

Discussion: Other Buffs/Debuffs list

AdlaiT (talkcontribs)

The Other Buffs and Debuffs lists are currently very long. It has been mentioned to me on Discord that the character-specific status effects generally just links to the character's page with little to no explanation.

The reason why I am bringing this up for public discussion is because the Status Effects page is relatively one of more the more visited Gameplay pages according to our website stats and I'm not sure what is the best course of action. The Status Effects page has a lot of very pertinent data for major status effects, so we want to reduce the page clutter if possible.

There's a few options to consider, though, keep in mind that this list not exhaustive:

  1. Remove all character-specific and enemy-specific status effects.
  2. Default collapse the Other Buffs/Debuffs tables to reduce vertical space.
  3. Keep the lists as-is on the Status Effects page.
  4. Keep the lists as-is, but on its own page separate from Status Effects.

Please reply to this topic with your vote on which option to take. You may also share thoughts or other options. You can also discuss this in #wiki_discussion on Discord.

--AdlaiT (talk) - Wiki Admin 10:55, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Seyren007 (talkcontribs)

I vote no. 4.

Grimm (talkcontribs)

Hmm, I think my vote would be similar to #4, but only move the character-specific and enemy-specific ones there while keeping the general other buffs/debuffs as is

Hivehum (talkcontribs)

i think grimm's variant is the best option -- perhaps with an exception for enemy debuffs? (i'm thinking of a use case where you run into a buff you're not familiar with because it's a new enemy, or someone using a raidwide debuff you've never seen before, and needing a quick reference for it)

Infel (talkcontribs)

I think Character specific buffs definitely need to be separated into their own category. I don't know if it's worth warranting a unique page for it, though, so perhaps just have them in a table that auto-collapses. Same feeling for unique debuffs as well.

AdlaiT (talkcontribs)

Thanks for the input everyone. I have a solid idea on what should happen now.

--AdlaiT (talk) - Wiki Admin 02:51, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

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