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Abolish the terms Single-Sided and Double-Sided

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142.129.245.25 (talkcontribs)

It is really hard to explain to newbies the difference between single-sided debuffs and double-sided debuffs. It is not clear and concise at first glance.

https://aigis.fandom.com/wiki/Buffs_and_Debuffs

This is more clear at first glance. Anyway, sorry I can't explain it well.

KonatsuSV (talkcontribs)

The stacking effectiveness in Granblue is complex and largely arbitrary. There are many "Special Cases" in stacking which cannot simply be explained by logic. And then there are so many areas where stacking discrepancies can happen, e.g. Elemental ATK buffs, debuffs, Bonus DMG buffs, etc.

Back to the main point, single-sided and double-sided debuff distinguishment is iirc simply one of the many heuristics players deducted to see if things stack. It works to a certain degree but there are definitely cases where this heuristic doesn't work (most notably Drang and Ferry(Grand)). Obviously we would like an exhaustive list of stacking relationships, and/or better heuristics to judge them, but it's also very time consuming to test and exhaustively list. In my opinion, there's no simple way of making these things absolutely clear.

But to answer your question: is there a clear distinction between single-sided and double-sided debuffs? The answer is yes, single-sided means one of ATK/DEF like Defense Breach, and double-sided means both ATK and DEF like Miserable Mist. However, like the wiki page mentions, MANY exceptions exist. I prefer the name "Mist category" and "Non-mist category", but I guess it's just as unclear as what we're using now.

Midokuni (talkcontribs)

I'd say `Mist` category and `Breach` category would work since the others would be `summon`(summons/ougis) `special`(lyria ougi) `elemental`(ele def down) `local`(turn based) and `unique` (special cases like shiva/anchira/aranan)

Midokuni (talkcontribs)

`Mist` and `Breach` categories would be less prone to the current problems dual and single sided categories give. Like what you said, Drang's debuff being a dual debuff but single sided.

Lauman1532 (talkcontribs)

The problem with 'Mist' and 'Breach' is that they are still linked to the concept of double-sided and single-sided. In my opinion, a more arbitrary naming scheme would suffice, e.g. A-sided/Cat A and B-sided/Cat B debuffs. In this case, it can be easily told/seen that a Cat A debuff will not stack with another Cat A debuff with the same type of effect, on the other hand, a Cat A debuff and a Cat B debuff will stack with each other even if they give the same type of effect.

Hakazumi (talkcontribs)

I definitely don't want any single-digit numbers or characters to be used. It's way too harder to remember and makes even less sense than what we have now.

Zeze (talkcontribs)

I agree with Hakazumi on the matter. The Bonus Damage page currently uses the A/B system and it's far too confusing considering A/B is used three times, for three different bonus damage sources, in the section explaining how it works. Nobody who doesn't already understand bonus damage stacking is going to make heads or tails of it if all the tooltip on the character's page says is "A".

Single-sided and dual-sided is somewhat wordy, but once you understand that "single-sided" stacks with "dual-sided," singles don't stack with singles, and duals don't stack with duals, that basically tells you all you need to know. You know what it means at a glance.

Lauman1532 (talkcontribs)

In fact what you are saying is exactly the problem why 'single-sided' and 'doubled-sided' confuse new players. This is because 'single-sided' and 'double-sided' reflect the idea of "whether a skill inflicts debuff of one attribute or debuff of two attributes", and this idea does not necessarily translate to the stacking relationships as outliers exist as mentioned by the others, so this can happen: A seemingly doubled-sided debuff skill which inflicts both ATK&DEF down does not stack with a single-sided debuff because the debuffs are actually single-sided (Yes I'm referring to Drang's 3rd skill). It makes sense if you get the distinction between two ideas right and clear, and I guess this is why the original poster suggested the change because it can be very hard to explain to newbies about the distinction.

To me, I'm actually fine with 'single-sided' and 'double-sided' even though they may give wrong expectation at times since most buff/debuff skills follow the 'single-sided and double-sided' pattern for stacking.

Zeze (talkcontribs)

As much as people will point out Cain and Drang's skills defying the "dual-sided" term logic, there's also the counter-point of Altair, Aqours, Arriet, Societte, and Vira SSR who have proper dual-sided Atk/Def debuffs. As a beginner, I had the opposite of the Cain/Drang scenario: I initially assumed that Vira's Atk/Def Down was single-sided because as a character, she would have a debuff that would stack with MC's MisMist. (Back then, I thought MisMist was the only skill that could stack with other Def Downs.)

This confusion will occur regardless of terminology because the root problem is outside of our control. The clearest, most concise way to teach beginners how debuff stacking works is just "these are the terms we use, the wiki tells you what kind of DEF Down stacking it is based on testing." It's not a pretty answer, but it's the same as explaining grid-building to a beginner. Probably half of it is going to fly over their heads until they have more hands-on experience.

Midokuni (talkcontribs)

Honestly, I think `mist-sided` and `breach-sided` are better. since you can just say "mist-sided debuffs dont stack with mist` and so on with breach sided

Hakazumi (talkcontribs)

That's even more confusing. Mist sided things are on "mist's side", they're like friends, so they should stack with it, right? That's was my first thought. I'm not native English speaker though.

No matter the game there are things that new players won't understand at first glance. But generally it never takes long and in this case, debuffs are also something they can test themselves very easily. Some entries in tier list mention if character's debuffs stack with mist or not, increasing that number would be enough imo.

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AdlaiT (talkcontribs)

Rather late of me to chime in on this conversation, but I've had enough time to think about this.

As esoteric as "single" and "dual" are, they are unified terms within the international community at the very least. New players already have to deal with more than enough interchangeable terms (e.g. Magna/Omega, Ougi/C.A., Chev/Lumi, etc.). Trying to enforce a new set of terminology that the community won't completely adopt only adds to the beginner's learning hurdle, which is already high enough.

The reality is that there's no set "rules" that even Cygames follows in regards to stacking, which leaves explaining it fairly difficult for practically everyone. Zeze's post expressed most of my viewpoint already. The best we can do is explain what these terms mean and be consistent/accurate on their usage on the wiki.

--AdlaiT (talk) - Wiki Admin 07:33, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

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