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I think what is said in the description of the Gender category on this wiki page is strange.

18
Forte.EXE (talkcontribs)

It says: "Gender is a character attribute used for game mechanics. A character's lore, appearance, and other factors do not affect this attribute."

The first sentence isn't what's weird as its entirely accurate, but the second sentence is. When a character is presented and it clearly looks like a Male or Female, that is generally what the gender says about them when you do the search in-game. But there has never been any confirmation or showing of a person going through a change mid-plot which would result in the change of what it shows for a character in gender. So why is that being said?

Kamen Writer (talkcontribs)

Two examples that immediately come to mind are Cagliostro and Ladiva. Cagliostro was born a male in a sickly body and moved her soul into an artificial female body through alchemy at a very young age. Though her lore states she was originally born male (and then spent many centuries as a female and identifies as such), she is Female. Ladiva has the typical physical characteristics of a male Draph, identifies as female, and has been given the in-game gender of "Other". This is what it means by lore and appearance don't affect the attribute.

Forte.EXE (talkcontribs)

That right there though is the error here. Because, the Male Cagliostro isn't a playable character. The Female Cagliostro is. Even though she was originally male, that male Cagliostro literally doesn't even exist anymore and was never presented as a playable character in the first place. Her being Male originally has nothing to do with the playable Cagliostro we have now as both people are different bodies and selves as confirmed in Alchemist's Desire. ( https://imgur.com/QApCLMC ). For example, if it was an NPC Journal entry, then it would then be Male for Cagliostro right then and there.

As for Ladiva, it is completely understandable that her gender is "Other", because it is a complete mix-up. The "Other" gender is for things that you cannot determine the gender for or is a mix between them in some way. Such as Ladiva being biologically Male, but is going by Female pronouns.

Forte.EXE (talkcontribs)

Another thing to say here is that these characters never changed mid-plot, those are pre-plot stuff that you mentioned. Therefore there isn't any showings of characters changing their gender in future plots that would result in their gender in-game being changed.

Ryu Sei (talkcontribs)

I don't know if there's any current existing character with different gender variants. The later sentence implies that the char's gender is what it is on the current lore.

W We shouldn't talk about character's past only to dispute their current gender. But you got the point; NPC entries for past characters should refer to their past gender. (because we talked the pa

Ryu Sei (talkcontribs)

However, we took the entries of NPC (and their gender) verbatim from the game; nothing changed.

Kamen Writer (talkcontribs)

The way I read the sentence, it seems to me the original author was simply trying to say "there are trans characters" in an overly literal way without bringing up the concept of trans, likely to avoid arguments with transphobic people who refuse to acknowledge Ladiva as female or who insist that Cag is simply an old guy with a young female body because of his preferences (and not in the meme-y sense). Read another way, it's saying, "Despite Ladiva physically appearing to be male, she is not categorized as Male by the game. Despite Cag originally being male according to her lore, she is categorized as Female by the game." with an implied "Deal with it." tagged on.

Forte.EXE (talkcontribs)

@Aryo adhi

An NPC entry for the past Cagliostro shouldn't even exist. I posted the past Cagliostro in the shot right here in the link: https://imgur.com/QApCLMC Though you get the idea.

@Kamen Writer

Cag.. isn't old at all. I don't know why people keep calling her that and she isn't even Transgender neither. To explain everything here: Cag was just a sick little boy with an incurable illness, and to avoid dying and having to deal with his current body, he swapped into an immortal body and was technically reborn as it already confirms in the shot. In Alchemist's Desire, Cagliostro already explains that he does not age in the kind of body he created. Immortal bodies are outside the boundaries of human framework which was defined to us in game as not being able to age, reproduce, or grow. ( https://imgur.com/yQ7XpoR ). The things humans do within the cycle of life and death. Though homunculi are artificial humans anyhow. Now explaining how this isn't Transgender is simple, but trips people up anyhow. To be Transgender, like Ladiva, you just swap your biological gender with a gender. Simple. I'm a guy, so if I decide I want to go by female pronouns, then i'm Transgender now. But for Cagliostro, or anyone who swaps bodies, it's different. As the definition for Transgender states, you must differ from your Birth(Biological) gender to be Transgender. Since Cagliostro swapped out his body, he technically swapped from one Biological Gender to another Biological Gender. So Cag left that body to die, and is now in a new body with a new biological gender, therefore being reborn and not differing from it. Had Cagliostro wanted to remain being called male pronouns in her female body, this would be Transgender. But since she didn't decide to do that, it isn't. Her Male self carrying her old biological gender is dead and doesn't exist anymore, if not lifeless, the moment she left it. This was also already confirmed things in her Fate Episode, but was expanded upon in Alchemist's Desire. She had straight up said the same things I said in regards to her Male self not existing anymore and that who she is now is who she is. A Female. ( https://imgur.com/RKfbVPX )

This is why at times you will see people say Cagliostro isn't trans, because they understand that bodyswapping =/= that at all and that the definition is also saying that. There is already an established rule to it, where you have to be in the same body to do something like that. This is also why Cagliostro isn't Other in gender, because it would take into account that Cagliostro is a Male. But her Male self is dead and gone. It is a past-life. Her familiar, Ouroboros symbolizes life and death also.

Forte.EXE (talkcontribs)

@Kamen Writer

The people who call Cag a he despite what she looks like are either pretty ignorant or dumb unless they are trying describe how she was in a past life when swapping into another body. Which is the only instance to me where that isn't dumb at all. Despite what you're saying, it doesn't help with how:

"A character's lore, appearance, and other factors do not affect this attribute."

Because what you're describing is pre-plot stuff. These things didnt happen in the present time, so we cannot determine whether or not this quote is true, because this quote is just an odd assumption that probably shouldn't even be there.

AdlaiT (talkcontribs)

Kamen Writer is correct. In the past, there has been page vandalism related to certain characters where people would change pronouns with ill intent or they would change a character's gender field for various reasons. The gender field is strictly taken from the game itself and can be verified in Lyria's Notes using the Gender filter. That is why the gender disclaimer is worded that way.

As far as character pronouns go, the wiki goes with the character's preferred in-game English pronouns. For example, Helel ben Shalem's game gender is flagged as "Other", but uses she/her pronouns. This is so that we're consistent with the game's English translation.

This is a wiki, thus we aim to be neutral with regard to character gender.

--AdlaiT (talk) - Wiki Admin 19:26, 20 November 2020 (CET)

This post was hidden by Forte.EXE (history)
Forte.EXE (talkcontribs)

Alright, so there was vandalism.

But it should still be inaccurate to say:

"A character's lore, appearance, and other factors do not affect this attribute"

Because there is no proof of future changes that would change a character's gender in the first place.

Like you said, the gender field is strictly taken from the game itself, but how they were beforehand doesn't matter at all because that isn't the character we're currently using.

Shalem goes by "she/her" pronouns but is Other, because she is actually a God like Sahar is a God. Sahar is Other in gender, but as his disguise Lucio, he is Male. Since Shalem looks female, she goes by "she/her". Much like how Sahar looks Male, and goes by "he/him" as well as when he is Lucio. So how they are in gender is still accurate, cuz they can actually be whatever they want, but it is stated by Lucio that going against the forms they are given would be going against their creator, the Omnipotent or Original Bahamut. So they choose not to do something like that. ( https://imgur.com/LygYmNu )

Forte.EXE (talkcontribs)

I thought that at the time, when Kamen said "the original author", he meant GBF's author. But if he meant the wiki Author then my mistake. However, the quote is still kind of contradicting for reasons I already said. I mean there could've been another way of stating that this wiki shouldn't vandalized right? Cuz i've actually seen people get the wrong idea before and apply it to the game itself rather than to vandalism on this site.

AdlaiT (talkcontribs)

"A character's lore, appearance, and other factors do not affect this attribute" is still applicable for any future changes/additions in the game because recruitable characters are sometimes portrayed within a specific timeframe. For example, Juri is a version from before he joined the Grandcypher crew whereas Juri (Event) is after he joins the crew. There are also recruitable characters that are completely imaginary (i.e. Freezie), which means almost anything is possible.

I'm honestly not sure what your aim is. I used Shalem as an example of the wiki's stance on character pronouns vs. their gender flag used for game mechanics. I was not arguing that it should be otherwise.

--AdlaiT (talk) - Wiki Admin 22:37, 20 November 2020 (CET)

Forte.EXE (talkcontribs)

I feel I misinterpreted that actually. But i'm just tryna say others can misinterpret that just as I did. My bad.

Forte.EXE (talkcontribs)

I probably should've noticed it earlier, but my Cag example was already an example of that quote lol

AdlaiT (talkcontribs)

The gender disclaimer is not changing. At the very least, there's no reason to change it based on your arguments. The disclaimer is deliberately worded and it has been working as intended for the past couple years.

--AdlaiT (talk) - Wiki Admin 00:44, 21 November 2020 (CET)

Forte.EXE (talkcontribs)

The arguments I made were just another thing the quote itself could be applied to. So again, my mistake. Whoever gets the wrong idea, i'll just tell them what I learned here.